Antineutrino

Vielleicht Maurice Jarre? Der hat auch immerhin drei Oscars und die Mehrheit seiner Scores nach 1970 geschrieben. Unveröffentlicht ist da auch noch eine Menge.

CD natürlich in gutem Zustand. Aus der Frühzeit meiner Sammelleidenschaft. Sicher sehr interessant für alle Williams-Fans. Link zu Amazon-Marketplace: http://s1.amazon.de/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y01Y6094312Y8302298/028-2069279-5078146

Papillon - Jerry Goldsmith The Black Stallion/The Black Stallion Returns - Carmine Coppola/Georges Delerue

Bei Moviewave zitiert Southall Rosenman in der Fatastic-Voyage-Rezsension mit "Beethoven's Ninth? Pah! You should hear Robocop 2!" (Das nenn ich mal gesundes Selbstbewusstsein! ) Was hat er denn da genau gesagt?

In der Evolution gibt's nun mal auch hin und wieder Fehlentwicklungen. Die sterben aber mit der Zeit aus.

Gibts dann auch bald außer einem "Director's Cut" auch einen "James Horner's Cut" zu dem Film auf DVD? Das wäre doch mal was! Es ist natürlich auch immer leicht, einen Regisseur/Produzenten für eine abgelehnte Filmmusik zu kritisieren. Ich möchte nur mal gerne wissen, was passiert wenn man mal selber persönlich für einen 180.000.000-Dollar-Film verantwortlich ist. Aus der Film-Score-Fanecke ist das immer leicht gesagt. In der Realität sieht das dann aber etwas anders aus.

Falls jemand das Original lesen möchte (zumindest Teile der zweiten Hälfte des Interviews über Troja und The New World): DANIEL SCHWEIGER: Now, two films, two recent films that you’ve scored that I imagine were very challenging were Troy and The New World. Now, on Troy, you were coming in as the replacement composer for Gabriel Yared and you had already done The Perfect Storm for the director, Wolfgang Petersen. In a way, was it as hard as it was easy? Because, I think you’ve got two to three weeks to do this score, but because there is like no time for you to do it, that there isn’t gonna be the kind of studio second guessing that may have, you know, messed up the first score that was done for it. JAMES HORNER: Uhm, let me see where I start with Troy. Wolfgang is very opinionated. And a very proud man. And he wants everything to be huge. The biggest ever, the most grand. "We’ve never had a shot of 5,000 people or 50,000 army before - look at the shot of the ocean and you see 5,000 ships - that’s the biggest shot in history!" I mean, he’s very much into this huge old-fashioned grandure, and I think that he was making what he felt was the best film of the decade. I think that was his mindset. And I wasn’t asked to do the original, which was sort of - at the time - a bit of a twinge for me, because I did such a nice job, or he seemed so pleased on The Perfect Storm. Even though everybody, including myself, very very vocally begged him to take down the ocean water sound effects, which he wouldn’t do in The Perfect Storm. And I think ultimately it didn’t do as well, because people just got overwhelmed by the constant barrage of noise. So it didn’t do as well as it was supposed to or as it was promised and hyped to. And I think he felt that he probably could do better musically. So he started Troy with Gabriel, and of course Gabriel is very well known in Europe. He was going to make this huge Movie of the Decade, the Trojan War, you know, very dramatic. And he worked with Gabriel and gave Gabriel free reign to do whatever Gabriel wanted, without thinking of how an audience might react, or whatever. And the two of them worked, and Gabriel dutifully did whatever was asked of him by Wolfgang, and Wolfgang’s musical tendencies are to overscore everything, like a Wagner opera. He’s not into subtlety. At all. Not in the slightest. And emotion to him is a 3,000-pieced orchestra playing a sappy violin theme. I mean, I’m being nice, but not being nice. I’m being - this is what I mean by being direct. He’s a lovely man. These are only issues that become issues when you’re in the trenches and you’re really working on a film and it has to be stunning and these are the issues you come up with another -- with your employer, or your -- somebody you’re working closely with. So, Wolfgang gave a lot of instructions to Gabriel that were hugely wrong. And just so old-fashioned. And Gabriel dutifully did his job and Gabriel also brings to the project a certain quality that is not necessarily the most cinematic, but perhaps is a little more operatic, and didn’t have the experience of scoring a big action movie. His movies are a little bit more refined. And, you know, his previous, The English Patient, was really very much based on Bach’s music. I mean, if you listen to Bach’s preludes and fugues and those things you’ll hear Gabriel’s score. And I suppose I could say you would have to be a trained musician or a musician with some sort of education to know that, but when you hear the two things you think: "That’s Bach." I don’t say that to denigrate Gabriel, I only say that to give you an example of how Gabriel was not familiar with this big action movie thing that Wolfgang wanted. And Gabriel and Wolfgang made the score together, fifty-fifty. So what happens is, they have The Score from God in The Movie from God and they’re in London doing post-production. Gabriel has a huge choir, huge percussion, huge this, huge that. And, before they put the chorus on, they brought it to California to preview - the studio insisted on a preview. And Wolfgang was so sure of himself he thought, "Oh my God, you wait until you see the reaction to this movie." And Gabriel hadn’t even put the choir on. The choir was doubling some of the string stuff, and it was going to make it more massive, okay?, and he had lots of sort of Middle-Eastern stuff and -- The audience -- They played it for an audience in Sacramento and took the usual focus group and the cards, and there were lots of comments about flaws in the movie, but to a man, everybody said the music is the worst they had ever heard. To a man. I mean, 100 percent take out the score. I’d never heard of a preview where people are so in tune to the music that they even notice it, much less demand that it ruins the movie for them. And in the focus group, the same reaction, they all said, "it’s horrible music. Who did this music?" And, you know, I hadn’t seen the film. I didn’t -- this is all sort of in hindsight, cause I hadn’t -- I didn’t keep up with the movie. They previewed it again with the same result, and Wolfgang was white. Completely shaken. Totally lost his confidence. Warner Brothers asked me, I guess because I had experimented with so much music of different cultures in various films, but somebody suggested me, and they approached me, and said, "would you look at the film and tell us what you think? And do you think you could do this if we took out the score?" And I looked at the film, and it was -- I don’t even know how to describe how atrocious the music was. It was like a 1950’s Hercules movie. And it wasn’t because Gabriel’s not a gifted writer, it’s because he just doesn’t have any knowledge of writing film scores. Real film scores like that. And it was like -- It was so corny. It was unbelievable. And apparently it made the audience laugh in places during serious scenes. And this combination of this "please do it bigger and bigger and bigger" and "more is better" from Wolfgang and Gabriel’s, you know, not knowing what cinematic, big cinematic action music should be, they both came up with this score that was absolutely dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. And I looked at it and I said, "when do you need this score?" And they said, "well, they’re dubbing it now, they basically need it -- you have to be finished nine or eleven days at the very most." So I didn’t even have the two or three weeks that you alluded to before. I had nine or ten days to do it. And I met with Wolfgang, and he of course, is completely cowed out, apologetic, emberrassed, everything. Gabriel, meanwhile, in Europe, is furious. Because -- And he’s going on his website saying he was cheated and short-changed and they put his music in the film without the chorus and the chorus makes the differenc. And you know, you’re saying to yourself, "this guy just doesn’t get it." The chorus would have made it worse. If the problem was it was like thick, thick, black loudness over everything. And corny at that. But they hadn’t completely -- I hadn’t taken on the assignment yet. And I met with Wolfgang, and he was very emberrassed, and said I would be allowed to do whatever I wanted - would I please, please, please, do this, as a favor? And how grateful he would be at that trouble. Well, that’s Hollywood talk. I don’t ever expect people to be grateful. If it happens, it happens. Usually it happens with the low-budget filmmakers, because they truly are grateful. But with the big guys, when they say how grateful they are, I, it’s not something I put on the bank and put in my pocket. And the example is that, of that is that he didn’t ask me to do the next movie he did. He, after all the work we went through, I would not have done - what was the movie he just finished? - the one with the wave that turns the boat over. DANIEL SCHWEIGER: Oh, Poseidon. JAMES HORNER: I would not have done Poseidon Adventure if you’d paid me 10 million dollars. I would not have done that movie, honestly. But before I even knew what the movie was, he asked another composer to do it. So it shows you how, after all we went through on Troy, it shows you sort of how people’s minds work. They’re really not really grateful. They just want you to do it, help them out, and that’s where it ends. So I took it on as a challenge, because I didn’t know if I could do it in nine days, I had never done -- well, I’d worked on very short schedules on Paramount films and Disney films, which had very short post-production, Patriot Games and some of those films that, you know, Paramount. But I thought it would be a real challenge for me as a writer to see how much music I could write in nine days. And I promised that I could do, you know, 75 minutes. I didn’t know if I’d be able to do 95 or 100 minutes. I would do my best effort. But I was contractually bound to do 75 minutes. The film needed, when we went through it and spotted it for where the music went, it needed actually close to 118 minutes. DANIEL SCHWEIGER: Why, I certainly think you did a fantastic job on it. Now here’s music from James Horner’s score for Troy: The Trojans Attack [music plays] DANIEL SCHWEIGER: The New World is done by Terrence Malick, a very esoteric director. Especially in terms of his music and he has never used what anyone could consider a traditional score until The New World. What was it like working with the director who had such unique approaches to film music? JAMES HORNER: I would sum up Terry as a brilliant photographer - and that’s where it stops. The images in The New World are stunning, in Thin Red Line are stunning. In Thin Red Line he was surrounded by a couple of three or four people, a wonderful editor, a wondurful sound effects person who guided him through the dubbing and a couple of other people. And on The New World they were not employed. And Terry shot The New World and the whole idea of The New World was going to be a love story between John Smith and Pocahontas. And there is no reason in the world why it could not have been as great love story as Titanic was. That was the premise he got hired on and that is the premise he promised everybody he was going to deliever. So he went out shooting the movie, went over time, and got beautiful images and everybody "Oh god, this is so beautiful". There were a couple of things that were pasted together by a couple of the experienced editors of the love scenes. "Oh, this gonna be great, absolutely great". Okay, he had eight editors working for him - two prestigeous, the rest out of the wood work and some assistants. There was so much film he was working on night - on night there was a crew, on day there was a crew. When I first saw it, it was a mishmash of unrelated scenes, complete mishmash. I said "Well Terry, you need to..." - he asked me what I thought - "You need to cohere this, I mean this scene should be there" or kinds of editing things were wrong. It was the first assembly and he is a very, very nice man. That was like in April and he was supposed to have a cut ready by May to look at. And that we missed, he missed his deadline and it was in middle of June we saw it, the studio saw it and it was the same thing I saw two days after he finished shooting. It has gone through two and a half month work and it was just the same state. This was when I first saw it and red lights start to go up everywhere because I’m getting close to my recording dates and this is unscoreable like this. He also knew what the music was. I played him scenes, I played himeverything on the piano and I had the feeling he does not really know what movie music was. He didn’t have any experience with real film music being presented to him. Even in Thin Red Line it was all cut up. Here I was writing music for him which he would say was beautiful and great and sounded great on the piano, whatever. But I knew - and I warned everybody - this man does not have a clue what to do with movie music or how it works, not a clue. He is gonna to hear his first cue and not know what to do with it and I warned everybody. I begged him to watch several of movies that have music in them very effectively. Be it One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, I mean I showed him all kinds of films or asked him to see all kinds of films that were head scores in them. He said he would, but he never did. And slowly the editorial team started to disintegrate. The good editors left and they brought in more asisstants and it was cut by a bunch of incompetence. There was no real editor. He continued on in that way asking for opinions and we were approaching recording recording and there were no scenes to record, there were no scenes to time. He had no structure, literally, no structure. Scene A that was should go to scene B to C to D a natural progression. He had it attached to scene Z and that was attached to scene X and that was attached to scene D. I mean, there was no way to score it. So what I did with the film company’s permission is I made sequences from myself. I had my music editors assemble sequences as I thought they should be or as they normally be. And we scored some of that and it was lovely, just what everybody had hoped would be intended by the film. And Terry saw it and immediately took it back to his editing room and cut it apart and we were still recording and I realized that it was just a waste of everybody’s money to keep recording that we were commited because we had hired the orchestra. So Terry was making this movie that was incomprehensable. Everybody told him it was unwatchable. Everybody. Everybody. And he had Final Cut and when a director has final cut everbody can scream and shout but unless you’re willing to really go head to head in combat you basiclally have to throb your hands and say "I have no control of this man." And if we get the reputation of taking a director’s cut film from a director and recutting it ourselves and releasing no one want to make movies with us. So the studio company let him go along. He never did preview it but he played it for the studio and there were 35 people would come to the screenings and slowly over the course of three hours - because it’s a three hour movie - they would walk out. The editor who had worked on The Thin Red Line begged Terry to fix the fim. It was a love story and Terry doesn’t feel those feelings. All I can say is that Terry is on the surface a stone and he does not know how to tell love stories to save his live. When we scored the movie he completely disassembled everything. The score made no sense anymore and he started to stick in Wagner over scenes and a Mozart piano concerto over an Indian attack everybody to a man thought he was insane. By this time I was no longer on, I basically said "Fuck you" so I just did say a four letter word. I’m out of here. I’ve done my score. I thought what I have done was exactly what my brief was being hired, exactly what the studio wanted, exactly what the film supposed to be and the one who broke the bond was Terry. From the day he started editing to the final day when they kicked him off the dubbing stage he was just spending hour after hour doing nothing. It was like shuffling the tiles in a Rubik’s Cube. There was never a solution. All he was do was shuffle scene D over to scene X or Y would go up to A. Now that. Let’s try putting up A after D and putting D behind J. There wasn’t any gift of telling the movie. Terry doesn’t so this. And that was something we all learned about the great Terry. I never felt so letdown by a filmmaker in my life. DANIEL SCHWEIGER: Well, I think, it’s a listing experience. There certainly is no letdown. JAMES HORNER: Well, the cd is as I intended. I said to myself "This is not worth it. I want to resign." I’ll get my money anyway so to speak but I don’t care about the money. I want to do what is needed in the film and make a wonderful film. I kept telling Terry "Terry, this does not have any emotion in it. Don’t you understand?" He looked at it and he would say "I don’t know if emotion is important here." The whole movie goes by without you knowing that this girls is even called Pocahontas. I don’t even know if people noticed that. No one ever uses the word Pocahontas in the movie. I said "Terry, people, this is the name of the girl", she got this name of Rebecca when she wandered into the english fort. Nobody knew what her real indian name was and this was the name of this women up to the end of this movie. You never knew she was Pocahontas, there was never really a love story, it was only alluded to. It was a complete mishmash and what was released. What amazing is 50 million dollars later what was released in the cinema was the exact version of the movie I saw when it was first assembled. The only thing different was they had spent 40 million dollars in between editing, moving the Rubik’s Cube. Out came the other end the same movie and all the important people have resigned and said "Terry, you’re out of your mind.". That’s the story of The New World. It was the most disappointing experience I’ve ever had with a man because not only threw out my score - he loved my score - he didn’t have a clue what to do with it. He didn’t have a clue how to use music. So what he started to do was as I said take classicle pieces. But not even pieces the would be transparent and lovely. He was taking Wagner like a thick, thick planket or rock putting it on his movie and, I swear to god, on the dubbing stage everybody thought he was joking and he would bring up these musical solutions and take out the score and putting in Wagner or take out the score there and putting in Mozart. The cd is what I wrote for the movie and it makes a lovely cd but it’s the weirdest experience, he loved all the music, but he had not a clue. It’s not like he fired me and I’m bitter. What happened was I’m bitter because he did not make the movie he promised everybody he would make. Everybody felt betrayed, from the film company down to the editors. Everybody felt betrayed and this was the man who took the story that could have been one of the great love stories and was one of the great love stories in history and turned it into crap. And it’s because he doesn’t believe in those things, he doesn’t understand them and most importantly he has not an emotion in his body. He’s emotionless. He looks at a scene and it breaks everbody’s heart and there are 15 people in the room crying. When we scored a scene the orchestra came in because it looks so beautiful, its photography is so stunning and it was a scene we put together for scoring. It wasn’t Terry’s cut , it was more or less James Horner and his music editors’ cut. So that we could have a structure to score to, otherwise it was just going to black film. There was no film to record to. It was a fifteen minutes sequence literally there were like 80 people. We played it like two or three times. He was in the room, all crying all thinking how moving it was, how brilliant it was - not the music, but the scene. They thought the picture was so beautiful and the story and everybody was so excited and I tought surely that showed Terry that he was on the wrong track. The primary editor Richard Chew etc were there and it was so clear what people longed for in the movie what the music brought out. But that’s not the movie Terry had in mind and he saw the reaction and he took that whole scene and, of course, but it back on the Rubik’s Cube stage and the whole thing was deconstructed and unwatchable again. DANIEL SCHWEIGER: Music from James Horner’s original score "The New World - A Flame within" [music plays] [interview continues]

Es sollte allerdings klar sein, dass so ziemlich alle Kommentare völlig aus dem Zusammenhang gerissen sind, so z.B. bezieht sich das "Score From God" nicht auf Horners Score...

Cinemusic.net != Cinemusic.de

Zwei Videos von CBS: New Tune For 'Evening News' September 5, 2006 http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=1966504n Evening News' Musical Maestro September 13, 2006 http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=2003110n

James Horner bei "On the Score": http://filmmusicworld.com/radio/index.php?todo=inside&header=&page=&storyid=18&storycategory=&storycategory1=

Heißt das etwa, dass schlecht Komponisten kein hohes Alter verdient haben?

Werden die Filme eigentlich nur angekündigt oder dreht Stephen Sommers auch mal einen? (Woher nimmst du eigentlich die Gewissheit, dass Alan Silvestri jeden Stephen-Sommers-Film macht?)

Review bei Soundtrack.net: http://www.soundtrack.net/soundtracks/database/?id=4436 ****1/2

Ums mal so zu formulieren: "Watt der Bauer nich kennt, dat frisst er auch nich". Gerade Anbetracht der Tatsache, dass die englischsprachigen Seiten fast gleich viele Stimmen bekommen haben, zeigt doch nur, dass verständlicherweise nicht jeder Lust hat sich fremdsprachige Texte durchzulesen. Es haben ja auch schon einige gesagt, dass sie einige der Seiten gar nicht kennen. Wer da ernsthaft meint, das wäre eine Bestätigung, dem kann ich auch nicht mehr helfen...naja, man soll ja jedem seine Illusionen lassen - auch unserer Filmmusik-Taliban.

Dann sollte ich mir den Film vielleicht mal anschauen. IMDB sagt da nämlich was anderes.

Ich glaube kaum, dass die Synths wie Red Heat oder Commando klingen werden, eher schon wie in Braveheart oder The New World. Beyond Borders spielt aber glaube ich auch in den 80ern. Mir würde spontan auch kein Horner-Score einfallen, in dem überhaupt kein Synthesizer zum Einsatz kommt. Selbst in A Beautiful Mind gibt es Cues, die ausschließlich synthetisch sind.

Hättest du diesen Thread mal gelesen, wüsstest du, dass ganz sicher keine irischen Instrumente zu hören sind (wie in übrigens 95% aller Horner-Scoresauch nicht).

Das mit dem orchesterlosen Ansatz ist doch schon einige Wochen bekannt...? Mir haben die Synthies in Beyond Borders jedenfalls gefallen. Ich glaube aber nicht, das es wie BB klingen wird. "orchestra-free != synths only"

Horner vertont nun doch The Good Shepherd. http://filmmusicworld.com/radio/index.php?todo=showstory1&header=&page=&storyid=335&storycategory=&storycategory1= :D

Den wahren Grund verrate ich nicht!

original-score ist doch TPS-Musicgroup. Immer hilfreich für deutsche Seiten - das Filmmusik-Phrasen-Handbuch: "konzertant" = "alles zwischen Main Title und End Credits ist langweilig" "Lokalkolorit" = "ethnische Musik mit der ich micht nicht so richtig auskenne, wenn ich das so formuliere, klingt das gleich viel schlauer" "Souvenir" = "eigentlich gefällt mir der Score ganz gut, ich traue mich aber nicht das laut zu sagen" "Handwerklich ein gutes Stück hinter John Williams" = "Mir gehen die Argumente aus, weshalb JW besser sein sollte. Schreib ich das mal so, dann hört sich das möglichst schwammig an" "pfiffig" = "Die Musik ist technisch nicht sonderlich anspruchsvoll, gefällt mir aber traotzdem." "Piano" = "Klavier" "Ethnogesäusel" = "ethnische Musik, die nicht nach Golden Age klingt" "im XYZ'schen Idiom" = "Da ist ja wirklich alles von XYZ geklaut. Leider heißt der Komponist aber nicht Horner" :D

Ich verstehe immer noch nicht so ganz, weshalb Barry für einen neuen Bond-Film nicht mehr passend sein sollte.

Stimmt, der soll auch gut sein. Leider gibts die CD nicht mehr so einfach.

Southall von Moviewave ist wenigstens auch einer der findet, dass John Williams vor 1975 im Grunde bestenfalls ein durchschnittlicher Komponist war. The Cowboys ist toll, aber die Scores zu den Katastrophenfilmen sind einfach nur unterirdisch. Ich weiß nicht, was bei JAWS passiert ist, dass er seitdem (fast) immer einen guten Score nachdem anderen schreibt.